By David Galland, Managing Director
Nick Giambruno: Joining me now is David Galland, the
managing director of Casey Research. His internationalization story,
which involved moving his life and his family from the US to Argentina,
was recently featured in
Internationalize Your Assets,
a free online video from Casey Research. He is perfectly suited to help
us better understand some of the important lessons in
internationalization that Argentina offers. Welcome, David.
David Galland: Nice to be here.
Nick: First, why don't you give us a little
background about the Argentine people and how they have learned to deal
with their government and recurring financial crises?
David: A good way to think about Argentina is that
it is an immigrant society, very much like the US, except that the
dominating culture emerging from the melting pot was Italian. This is
why Argentines tend to be famous for their dark good looks, vibrant
culture, and excellent food. Unfortunately, they also inherited "Italian
style" politics. I think that's a useful context for understanding the
consistent dysfunctioning of the Argentine government.
This at least partially explains Argentina's long love affair with
the Peróns. The country had one of the most successful economies in the
world until Juan Perón came into power and destroyed it. And, with some
rare bright spots, it's gone through long periods of financial crisis
ever since. Despite that, the Perónistas are still very much in charge.
If you look at the history of financial crises in Argentina, you will
see there is almost no 10-year period when there isn't a financial
crisis. As a result, the population has become extremely resilient in
the face of financial crises. When you mention the faltering state of
the economy, every Argentine you talk to will shrug and make a comment
along the lines of, "No problem; this is Argentina, we're used to it."
In other words, they have become fatalistic about such things.
But that doesn't mean they are complacent, because thanks to their long experiences with financial crises
Argentines have become masters at dealing with things like inflation and ridiculous government policies.
For the most part, the government is highly ineffective, and so the
Argentines just ignore it. Reasonably intelligent people always figure
out ways to work around whatever the latest decree the government comes
up with, then they tell their family members and friends. The word
spreads so that in no time at all, the populace at large has figured out
how to deal with the government's latest misstep, as often as not
turning it to their personal advantage. As a consequence, there is a
very robust underground economy; if people can do business off the
books, they do. Argentines pride themselves on their ability to outsmart
the government.
Nick: How can the actions of the Argentine
government give us insight into what a desperate government is capable
of and what might be in store for the United States?
David: The current Argentine government is dominated
by true believers – young people who have that idealistic notion of
equality for all, and who believe that government mandates can fix
anything that ails. They are hardcore socialists, leaning towards
communism. But, as is the case in the United States, they really don't
know what they are doing and so pursue policies that are incredibly
shortsighted. They are uninformed as far as history and economics are
concerned and blunder from one harebrained policy to another. There is
literally nothing that they will not try.
It is like a textbook case in government gone mad.
They have stolen the retirement accounts, devalued the currency, and
put capital controls in place. There are trade controls so that people
can't import necessities into the country, but instead, have to
manufacture them locally, with the government giving monopolies to their
friends. They have price controls, which force the local supermarkets
to not raise their prices. This will ultimately lead to shortages. And
there are already shortages of certain items. They didn't like an
opposition newspaper, so they nationalized the newsprint manufacturing
industry. In fact, just about every single thing that you could do to
screw up a country, they have done. It is comical to see the extremes
they have gone to. For example, in Argentina, if you publish an
inflation statistic that differs from of the official government
numbers, you could be hit with a $100,000 fine. I had never heard of
this anywhere else – except maybe in communist Russia. They are really
completely out of control and the country is spinning off into
la-la-land. Frankly, I love living right in the midst of all of it.
There is a lesson to be learned from all of this, and I think it is a very important one. When it comes right down to it,
any government
– not just the Argentine government, but the US government as well –
will simply do whatever it thinks it needs to do to keep the status quo
intact, with no moral or ethical considerations.
In the case of Argentina, and the United States as well, it is a
testament to the legacy strengths of the country – minerals, an educated
population, agricultural land in abundance, energy resources – that
despite a history of bad governance, the economy is still remarkably
robust. People living outside of the country would be forgiven, based on
the media reporting, for thinking the place is a basket case – but,
against all odds, it isn't. To a large extent that is because the
government's policies have chased much of the economic activity
underground.
Nick: I think something that exemplifies some of the
points you've just made was the recent debacle with the minister of the
economy. During an interview he was asked a very straightforward
question on the Argentine inflation rate. He uncomfortably stumbled
through his answer and cut the interview short . How was that received
in the country?
David: It was widely reported. At this point, the
Argentines have a great sense of humor about their government, as in the
majority of them think it's a joke. That said, people are fed up too.
In the seven months that we have lived down here, there have been two
massive, countrywide protests totaling around two million people. That's
about 5% of the country's population. In most countries that would be
enough to send a dictator and the government scrambling for their
private jets to get out of town.
The Kirchner government, however, has basically said, "Let the people
protest. We don't care; it's just a bunch of noise." To a certain
extent, that is true. But it's getting to the point where one of these
days it's going to boil over. In addition to the middle class, the
unions – which have traditionally been a bastion of support for the
Perónistas – are starting to show up in the streets as well. If the
government's purported friends are starting to protest against them,
then you have to wonder how much longer the current regime can last.
Nick: Given the situation you just described, what's
it like for you personally to be living on the ground in a country that
is going through all this? Does the inflation work to your advantage if
your money is not denominated in pesos and not located in the country?
David: Yes, absolutely. Argentina is really two
different countries. First, there is Buenos Aires , which is a big city
and contains by far the largest percentage of the country's population.
In BA there is a bit of crime, and in certain parts of the city you are
going to have more crime, but generally speaking, you would be surprised
to know that you were in the beating heart of a crisis. Restaurants are
full; the stores are open and full of very nice stuff. Second, there
are the provinces, which are mostly rural and agriculturally oriented.
Here the central government's authority is weak, and the people are
relaxed. The quality of life is tremendous. This is not just the case
for Americans, or people who are non-peso based; it's pretty much for
everyone. Food in a place like Cafayate, where we live, is so cheap it's
almost free. You can walk out of a store with a huge bag of fresh
produce and it's going to set you back only a few bucks. A kilo of fine
tenderloin will cost you maybe five dollars. Back here in the US a
couple of days ago I paid $22 for less than a pound of steak. Then
there's the cost of labor. In Argentina, we have an extremely competent
maid who comes in for five hours a day, five days a week and does all
the cleaning and laundry – drudge work that people in the Western world
have learned to view as an unavoidable part of life – and the cost is
all of about $40 a week.
So, despite the overarching reality that the government is
dysfunctional and that this is currently being evidenced in the
inflation, the quality of life in Argentina for anyone with a few bucks
is very, very high.
When I first arrived in the country, I was expressing bewilderment
about how screwed up the government was and all of their stupid policies
to a friend of mine who owns a local café. After listening patiently,
my friend looked at me and said, "David, is the sun not shining, is the
wine not plentiful, and is the food not good? So what are you worried
about?" It's a fatalism, but it's also a realism that the people don't
worry about the government. And because the government is so
inefficient, people can, for the most part, ignore it with impunity.
That's not the case in the Western countries where the government has
become very adept at using the latest technologies to keep an eye on the
populace.
Another friend of mine, a retired successful businessman said, "You
know, Argentina is the best country in the world. We just need a little
better government." And I looked at him and I said, "Just
a little
better?" And he said, "Yeah, just a little better. We don't want them
to become too efficient, then we wouldn't be able to get away with
everything we are able to get away with."
That said, there are obviously middle-class and lower-class people
who are struggling under the inflation. Again, this is especially the
case in the big city where the social safety net of friends and family
is not quite as tightly knit, and where ready access to the
straight-from-the-farm produce is not as easy.
For anyone whose net worth isn't tied up in pesos and who
keeps most of their money out of the country, the current inflation has
been a real boon.
You can go to the best restaurant in town and your entrée is going to
cost you five to seven dollars, and this is a very good restaurant. A
bottle of wine that would cost you $40, $50, $60 in the States, costs
you maybe $5-6. The quality of life is incredible. A lot of that has to
do with the exchange rate, which has been as much as ten pesos to the
dollar recently. When we first started coming down here, it was like
three and a half. In short, the inflation is a real benefit if you don't
have your savings and income tied up in the peso.
Nick: From what it sounds like, despite having
capital controls, those measures are mostly aimed at people trying to
take so-called hard currency, like US dollars, out of the country. For
those bringing them into the country, it doesn't appear that there is
much of a problem. Is that the case?
David: You would think they would want more US
dollars to flow into the country, but the government policy is so balled
up they have put up some barriers to bringing money into the country.
That said, there are simple mechanisms you can use to get around the
restrictions that are completely legal. One of which involves buying
Argentine bonds on the international market and selling them back in
Argentina. As for the Argentines who want to get their money out of the
country, they have to be extra clever, but they are very good at this
kind of stuff. For me, dealing with this situation has been a great
experience. Unlike in the US, where everything is straightforward and
the rules generally make sense, in Argentina it's a very fluid
situation.
I love the fact that I feel like I'm getting a degree in economic crises and how to operate in one.
Nick: Do Argentines favor gold? What about getting gold in and out of the country and buying or selling it in the country?
David: This is a very interesting question. I've
asked that question in the context of economic crises around the world
and throughout history. Gold only comes in as sort of the asset of last
resort. We did a crisis panel at one of our conferences a couple of
years ago, and we had people who had been through the hyperinflation in
Zimbabwe and Serbia, and we also had someone from Argentina. I was
moderating the panel and asked them all what factor gold played in
preserving their wealth. Everyone said it was not a factor. Instead,
they all used whatever strong currency they could get their hands on. In
the case of Serbia it was the deutschemark. In the case of the Zimbabwe
it was the South African rand, and in the case of Argentina it was, and
still is, the US dollar.
In Argentina, the whole country revolves around US dollars; it's
their medium of exchange and how they preserve their cash. For now at
least, the US dollar is king in Argentina. Personally, I exchange my
dollars in a coffee shop where I slip behind the cashier's counter and
this very cute girl does the exchange from stacks of pesos and thousands
of dollars. At some point, if the dollar starts to really collapse and
there isn't a suitable regional or local currency to take its place, I
think you will see more transactions in gold.
As far as gold transactions in the country, there are dealers in
Salta City, which is the nearest big city to us. Private transactions
can also be arranged. In Buenos Aires, of course, you can buy and sell
gold easier, but it's just not part of the culture at this time.
Nick: Turning to real estate, there are many people
who are potentially interested in Argentine real estate as we approach
what appears to be the bottom of the current crisis. What are your
thoughts?
David: I'm a big fan. We own a lot of real estate in
Argentina, most of bought when it was a lot cheaper. If you are a
dollar-based investor and you can get your money into the country at a
good exchange rate, then the real estate prices are very reasonable.
That said, I would add that the biggest market for Argentine real estate
currently is for Argentinians, because they have to find a place to put
their currency before its purchasing power erodes further. Right now it
is depreciating probably at 30% to 45% a year. My general sense is that
people who have their money outside of the country aren't in a rush to
bring it into Argentina. I can't fault them for that.
As far as I'm concerned, if you can afford to live in
La Estancia de Cafayate
and you don't, you are a fool. But that's a lifestyle decision, not a
pure investment decision. Cafayate is a really beautiful place, with all
the amenities and a great community of people. It's like the Napa
Valley 80 years ago. Most people who are looking to make a pure
investment right now should probably wait a bit longer. I don't think
the current crisis is over yet.
Nick: Last year the government made it illegal for
people to use US dollars in real estate transactions. Now, as you
mentioned, not everybody follows these types of rules. Is this something
that's adhered to? It could actually work to your significant
advantage, if you are foreign investor or someone who is looking to make
a lifestyle decision to buy property in Argentina, if there is a
further significant decline in the peso and you are forced to use pesos
in real estate transactions.
David: Absolutely. Provided you can get your money
into the country and get a good exchange rate, which you can, using that
bond trade method I mentioned previously. Cafayate is a small valley
with a limited amount of real estate available. It is very much on the
upswing, and prices are definitely going higher in dollar as well as
peso terms. In terms of putting your money into a pure investment or
real estate speculation, I don't think you could go wrong buying in
Cafayate at this point, especially if you get in at the right exchange
rate. You have to have the right mentality though, as it is not a
traditional investment.
Nick: What is the endgame with this current crisis?
Do you think there will be devaluation of the official exchange rate or
some other wealth-confiscation measures? What do you think will signal
that we're at the bottom?
David: I don't think you are going to see wealth
confiscation. The foreign percentage of ownership of the Argentine
economy is pretty small, so I don't think they would go after wealthy
foreigners. Could they go after the wealthy Argentines? It's possible,
but Argentina is not a big country and everybody knows each other. Most
of these government officials have managed to steal themselves enough
money to become part of the elite they would potentially be targeting.
So I don't see wealth confiscation coming. I think the endgame will come
when you get three or four million people in the streets and the
government realizes it has to do something. Maybe they would give into
the pressure for a devaluation of the peso.
Regardless, in the next election this October, I think there is a
good chance the current government will get voted out. If the new
government isn't completely stupid, then I think you could end up with a
real economic boom. That's the history of Argentina, a crisis followed
by a boom. I don't think we are at the bottom of the current crisis yet,
but I think we are getting there.
Nick: All right David, thanks for your time and
insight into the situation. There are indeed many lessons that Argentina
can teach for those wise enough to absorb them.
David: My pleasure.
Argentina is one of several strong candidates for internationalizing
your wealth, as well as your life. In addition to the things David
mentioned, there's much more to consider in taking this very important
step... such as how and from where to get a second passport... the best
ways to move wealth out of your home country... opening an offshore bank
account... investing in foreign stock markets... and much more.
Fortunately, the Casey Research team has put together a fact-filled,
comprehensive report that is an invaluable resource for anyone
developing an internationalization plan.
Learn more about Going Global 2013 and start your internationalization adventure today.